Should we be comparing Grand Seiko to Rolex?

I really liked the video, and I also think this commenter a) represents everything that is wrong in watch collecting and b) is, honestly, part of why I have a distaste for Rolexes in general. 

I really enjoyed your take on this subject in your video.  I always cringe a little when I hear comparisons between Rolex and GS.  I appreciate them both, but for different reasons.  I currently have a GS SBGA415 in my collection and love it.  I like Rolex, but for me the sweet spot is Rolex from 20+ years ago.  I certainly wouldn't mind adding a gold 1803 Day Date on a presidential bracelet to my collection one day.  

One day...🥰

My Favourite watch is the Seamaster, closely followed by a Grand Seiko spring drive.

Rolex = Overated

I think it is more meaningful to compare them in terms of technology and specs rather than design or status or whatever.. In the end it is a matter of personal taste I guess..

I enjoyed your discussion of both brands in your video, and I appreciate both brands and will eventually have them both in my collection. I am currently saving for a Grand Seiko to add to my collection, because I am fascinated by the spring drive, and I like the aesthetics of Grand Seiko dials a bit more than I do Rolex. Also, the Grand Seiko Spring Drive I have my eye on is far more attainable than the Rolex Datejust I would like to add to my collection.

Awesome video man! Im a big fan of both companies. They both have something that bothers me these days. From Rolex, getting a Rolex, while from GS, so many releases, so many of them being special editions is a bit exhausting to follow... 

On youtube, a culture of overhyped clickbait titles has evolved, especially when it comes to politics and ideology, but even watches. At the same time room for nuance goes away. 

On the surface of it, the hype is almost always a lie. A year after being destroyed by Grand Seiko, we still find Rolex trading, imagine that. A year after politician X "destroyed the career of Y" we find Y still in office.

If it was just about clickbait that would be a mere annoyance. But it seems that culturally (not universally, but in the Anglosphere) nuanced criticism and debate is under threat. People get entrenched in pushing their narratives. Debates threaten the narratives and are seen as big of a problem as a full on disagreement. 

Grand Seiko is a nice watch, they have in my opinion 4 or 5 really great models, but they are not Rolex and will never be the Icon or status symbol Rolex is. When is the last time you had to be told how great Rolex is compared to brand X? Grand Seiko fans should enjoy the brand and stop using it as avatar to go to war with Rolex owners.

A great demonstration of different aesthetics. GS is simple, high on texture, detail first. Rolex is impactful, visually complex and bling. Great to have both in the collection for the right mood 👍

You can't compare those two.One is worth for its quality one is worth for its name and fame.

Agree 100%.  I don't dislike Rolex watches (there's much to be admired) but I do dislike the stereotypical Rolex fanboy, which taints my impressions of Rolex as a brand.  At some level, Rolex is indirectly encouraging and/or complicit in this.  I guess it's similar to my feelings for BMW and douchey BMW owners.

Just watched this vid and couldn't wait to head over to Watch Crunch!

That Grand Seiko looks mad on a leather strap.

Great video Max. 🙌 Really enjoyed watching. 
 

I love both brands but in my opinion  you can‘t compare Rolex to Grand Seiko and shouldn’t. 

I have one of each. 116710 BLNR ("Batman") and SBGA413 ("Spring"). I'm in the "love both brands but for different reasons" camp.

Good video, with some great footage, but let's be honest... Roughly 100% of it was comparing Grand Seiko to Rolex :)

And as aggravating and obnoxious as the comment quoted in the first reply is, it's also somewhat correct. Like it or not, Rolex IS recognized as a symbol. It's one of the most recognized symbols in the world. It's also a nice watch, which we can compare to other nice watches. But it's that inescapable "symbol of success" element that sets it apart.

Choosing between my GS and my Rolex in the morning is somewhat to do with all the personal preferences and pros and cons and so on. But on some level I'm also choosing between putting on a symbol, vs. putting on a nice (arguably nicer) watch.

Great video. Comparison to Rolex is east because most know about Rolex. But quality, marketing, finish details, value retention, cache are very different. The spring drive meter in the dial just doesnt work. I believe I saw that one model had a see thu back. That makes sense from a design perspective on some models. Would be cool to be able to order a custom GS with either front a rear SD meter.

If you haven't already seen it, check out this article.  Super fascinating insight into how the GS brand has grown in the U.S.

https://www.fratellowatches.com/grand-seiko-fratello-paris-event-photo-report/#gref

In 4 years, GS went from 23rd in revenue in the U.S. to 4th (excluding Rolex per the chart - including Rolex, it would be 24th to 5th respectively).  This was all done with zero advertising, zero sponsorship activity, zero brand ambassadors (David Beckham is not whispering in anyone's ears that the watch was "born for a purpose").  Nowhere have I ever seen a single GS billboard or television ad.  There are 3 boutiques in all of the U.S.  While my family was out in the D.C. area over the holidays, the closest AD was this strip mall shop next to a Panera Bread in Gambrills, MD!!!

In spite of all that, GS went from 24th to 5th in overall revenue in the U.S. by 2020.  In other words, based solely on the strength of the product and the resulting word of mouth from enthusiasts, GS leapfrogged the likes of IWC, Tag Heuer, Panerai, etc.  Craziness.

I know that folks tend to complain about GS's massive catalogue of offerings.  However, in terms of profit-maximization, EVERY manufacturer wishes to sell as broad of a set of offerings as humanly possible.  It's the best way to fully capture consumer "willingness to pay" and engage in what is called "price discrimination" and maximize "producer surplus."  The only reason manufacturers don't typically offer such a wide range of products is because they are constrained by their manufacturing capabilities from doing so.  The reason Seiko can and did launch 408 new models in calendar year 2021 is because they have mastered lean manufacturing, which enables a manufacturer to very rapidly develop and bring to market, with very high quality, new products - and GS, by extension, obviously also have the same lean manufacturing capabilities.

A host of companies like Zara in retail, Toyota in automobiles, Kimberly-Clark in paper products, all achieve extraordinarily high profit margins, and product variability and quality using lean.  Take Porsche, for example.  The reason that in any given year, there are only 2 identical Porsche 911's sold worldwide, of the 30k+ sold annually, is because you can customize the hell out of them.  Every little box you tick costs a little more money, which enables Porsche to nearly perfectly capture your total willingness to pay.

The reason GS can have as many models as they have is because of lean.  And, as a result, their product quality is very high, while keeping costs low (relative to relevant competitors).  And, thus, you see them climbing from 24th to 5th without having spent a single dime on David Beckham.

To me saying that GS will not be Rolex, is like saying that beef stew will never be apple pie. Those brands clearly have a very different design philosophy, and a very different heritage. Seiko  has embraced the masses, Rolex has always addressed only a select few. Sure, you can say that Grand Seiko is different from Seiko, yet the same design principles carry over, you get more refinement out of essentially the same core design. The most likely reason is that the design principle works for a lot of people. (This might also be the reason why Grand Seiko's sister company, Credor, is largely unknown.

To add what you say about brand recognition: My dad had a Grand Seiko Quartz. It was gifted to him, and he believed it to be a Seiko, which was not completely wrong. But I think what Seiko is trying to be: A manufacturer of very good watches, without breaking with the Seiko brand.

Great topic Max.. although lately I have to ask... Why do we feel like we have to always compare non Rolex brands to Rolex? Is it, like you said in the video... No one knows these brands outside the enthusiasts realm, except Rolex?! A year ago my brother in law saw my latest addition, a vintage Omega SMP GMT. He knows nothing about watches but the only way I could get him to understand it's "level" or quality was to say it's like a Rolex... Because he understands Rolex as a brand means luxury and quality.. and now know's Omega means the same. I love GS for their technology and advancements, like the spring drive and dual impulse escapement in their latest movement, that's why I want to buy a GS...not because people say they are better than Rolex. 

Great video. I've been a watch nut for a long time. One thing I've learned is that your tastes will constantly evolve as you gain knowledge and also as the passion of your fellow watch nerds influences you. When I first learned of Grand Seiko, I thought they were nice, but why pay for just a dressed up Seiko that only watch nerds will appreciate? But I've come around to really appreciate the fine level of finishing that GS does so well and I will have one someday. Max, the one you have in the video is a stunner. 

They compare everything to rolex because the rolex marketing team is really good. I think rolex makes a good watch (not the best but good). Everyone knows what it is so many compare other watches to it. Non watch lovers can get a clearer picture. I personally think rolex hasn't been innovative in recent years. They don't have the best movement out there, the dials are boring, id like to see an open case back. And when you go out, you see 3+ people in the room with the same watch. Where is the exclusivity? Great branding, but some others make great watches. 

From a watchmaker's perspective, I think Rolex make much better movements then they are given credit for. I think they could do more with the Cellini line in the way of display backs as they have in the past with watches like the prince. As for the design, I see Rolex being a lot like the Porsche 911, in that the original design is the product. Personally I would much prefer a JLC or Steel VC 56 to a GS, I just think the whole Rolex comparison game is beating a dead horse. 

Max, this was a really great video. I liked how you describe the design features of the hour markers, and explained how more light enters the dial with the crystal design. 

keep up the good content. 

The best thing about GS is the community - I’ve had much more interesting conversations with strangers about GS than I ever had about Rolex or any other watch brand.  When I see someone with a GS, I feel compelled to acknowledge and strike up a conversation.  I don’t get that with a Datejust or Submariner.

So what does a GS on a stranger say to you?  To me, it says “there’s another psycho in the room; I’m not alone.”

This is weird - a lot of posts saying 'I love both brands' etc, I'll go the other way, Im not really into either, don't own either and have no plans too.  So with that POV, some comments:

1. I have never before heard Rolex linked to the increase in popularity of wristwatches and following your video I searched and couldn't find anyone else making that link - where is that coming from?  Rolex was a pretty minor player (almost a microbrand in modern speak) until the 20's by which time WW1 had cemented the men's wristwatch as a thing.
2. Totally agree GS seems to really struggle with sports watches, they all seem a little 'parts bin' and don't really tie together well.  Too many of their watches are too thick, I get that zaratsu polishing is hard and impressive BUT often it actually doesn't make the watch look better in the metal.
3. OTOH I don't think anyone ever really properly reviews Rolexes - getting so swept up in the name and history they forget to really look at the watch. In general the hands are too short, the overbranding is gauche, often far too much text in a grab bag of different type faces and on a few of the watches the case shapes and sizes have been nipped and tucked so often in response to the market they are losing their integrity - compare a modern sub to a 70's model and the new case shape is a mess (like a car line that's had too many model updates - it needs to go back to the drawing board).

None of this is really comparative - in general rolex and GS appear to produce different watches for different people with wildly different success criteria.

I think this different really comes home when you look at messaging.  Rolex is all about success, status, wealth etc - hence walls of green at tennis, golf and F1.  GS simply doesn't even want to say that.  As a result the the cache thing is mixed - yes, more normies have heard of rolex but who cares what normies think when it comes to watches? Two strangers sit near you on an aeroplane, one wearing a GS the other wearing a Rolex, which do you automatically think is likely to be a more successful doctor, lawyer, broker etc and which do you automatically think is more likely to be a watch guy?

 

Hi Max, another excellent video and I totally enjoyed it!  Furthermore, I agree with all your points.

I bought a Grand Seiko GMT SBGE205 in 2018, mainly wanting to experience the Spring Drive.  I liked the smoothly sweeping hand the best and the accuracy of the Spring Drive.  The movement had nothing special to look at and the design looked plain to me.  I sold it one year later.  It was a very well built watch, but it was just a bit too plain for me.  I found myself liking a 100% mechanical watch more.

I currently have a Rolex no date sub (new model) and expect to receive a DateJust with green palm dial later this year.  My plan is to hold on to these two watches and pass to my 2 sons in the future.  They are iconic pieces and so well built, they may be passed on in the family.  

More recently, I have been getting watches made by independent brands, as they are simply more interesting to me.  I will not buy another Grand Seiko any time soon.  But if the Rolex AD calls me, I will not hesitate to add another piece to my collection.  

Hi Max, another beautiful and great video! Thank you! Although I’m pretty sure I’m not getting a watch from either brands anytime soon as a fresh grad (hey got to feed myself first!). I think Grand Seiko still can’t take over Rolex just yet. 

In Hong Kong, Rolex rules on the wrist of passengers in subways (we call it MTR) and in sales (e.g. estates, insurance agents). Rolex sends out message of success, money and status. While GS a brand from Japan stays true to their culture, its all about the beauty (of nature and craftsmanship) and humility (subtlety). 

Furthermore, in Hong Kong (and post COVID world) a city where $$$ is literally makes a difference in everything (housing our Greatest problem). It’s too hard to ignore the market factor when comparing Rolex & GS. When Rolex gives you status (the brand), money (The Market) and appeal (versatility)…… Rolex is the one we all go for.

Well since I really like my arm attatched to my body, and considering where I live I'd get neither. But, I could probably get away with my arm still attatched to me longer if I have a brand that is not as famous, such as GS, but for how long I really can't tell. 

Hi Max, great video. Can I ask what strap you have the 415 on in the vid. It's perfect and am looking for a similar one for my 413

I own Rolex and Grand Seiko.  Most people agree GS have great craftsmanship.  I have found GS has spent a lot of effort in the design and in the details.  Max is right about the clasp of a GS.  It can get annoying.  If I really have to compare the two brands, the GS has too many watches with a similar design.  The height of most of their watches is too high.  The power reserve is a neat feature but not to everyone's liking.  The 20 Bar is misleading, you cannot go scuba diving with it unless you wear the diving GS. For GS to be more successful, they should fix their so called "Sports" collection. 

Put it simply, is GS a tool watch, a rugged watch like Rolex?  I guess a majority of people do not think so.

Do collectors see unique features that have been improved over generations of the same product line?  If there are I must have missed them.  GS bring back some vintage models but there is no evolution.  Rolex is good at continuously improving an already good product because most product lines are an icon, built for specific purposes.

We should stop comparing the two brands.  GS unlike Rolex do not spend millions on sponsoring sports events.  They worry about their sales figures therefore they launch similar models  frequently in a year.  They know their niche areas.  They want to be "Rolex" but the two are taking a different path.

For watch collectors, they are happy wearing a GS.  Because they already own many different brands.  For some people, owning a Rolex is the first goal in the watch collecting journey.

Had both, the comparison is stupid.  Rolex is a nice mainstream watch made relatively cheaply in huge quantities, largely by robots.  GS is an artisnal product touched by human hands at almost every stage of production, and finished to the tightest tolearances possible.  Rolex looks cheap when held next to GS.  GS should be comparaed to JLC, AP and VC.