I wanted to like this watch

Max

Do you ever meet a watch that looks so good, you don't even care about the specs? The new superocean takes the classic recipe that's made Tudor successful of vintage inspired design with strong build quality at half Rolex retail. But for the life of me, I can not understand Breitling's movement choice 🤔

#breitling #superocean #42
Reply
cornfedksboy
·

You nailed it on the movement vs price. The one minute chronograph design of the original seems mostly useless though and I’m glad they got rid of it.

I love the design and hope the movement catches up and that they refine the model in future iterations.

Aurelian
·

It takes a lot to get you to give a negative review.

SurferJohn
·

While I don't disagree with anything you said; I do have something to add. It is no secret I have very little love for the new Superocean; however, my love for Breitling remains long and deep.

Breitling was an early adopter of Ebauches, and as such they focused more on design and finishing; the stuff the customer could see and touch. This has been very successful for the brand, they use good ETA movements along with superb design and finishing.

There is a good off the shelf 60 minute totalizer movement available; Breitling had previously used this movement in their Hercules Pilot watches of the 2000's. But I think the reason it was ruled out on the new Superocean has more to do with waterproofing. It is very difficult and expensive to produce pushers that can be activated underwater. Avoiding the issue altogether, in this case that was the path they selected.

Coincidentally, Tag Heuer used this same movement with waterproof pushers on the Aquagraph models of the 2000's. Despite a small group of collector interest, the watch was not that successful and was swiftly and quietly discontinued.

Jimmer
·

The Kelly Slater LE is the first Breitling I bought. Beautiful watch. When my wife saw it she said, 'that watch looks like it was made for you'. This isn't a watch you buy if it's your only watch, cause you wouldn't get it over, say, an Omega Seamaster 300M; however, if you have a few watches like I do (and many enthusiasts do) then it's a nice one to add. I have no regrets. I love mine.

Image
Jimmer
·

I believe this has a Sellita movement, not ETA. It has 26 jewels, not 25. It's also regulated to be COSC certified.

Mr.Dee.Bater
·
Image

Per your own words...

You can come roast me on Watchcrunch.com

Okay! I'm here to oblige!

The new Superocean is one of the most beautiful watches to have been released in 2022. The fact that it uses a "workhorse" movement is a feature, not a bug!

I'm a broken record, but I'll say it again:

  • I would take an ETA or Sellita or Seiko or Miyota movement over an "in-house" 8 days a week

  • "Workhorse movements" have shown their reliability and quality in real-world, empirical, day-to-day use and abuse, for decades on end now

  • Parts are plentiful, any competent watch-maker is equipped to work on them, it's all relatively cheap to maintain, etc., etc.

  • The only reason that manufacturers are touting "in-house" movements is because the Swatch Group bought up all the movement manufacturers coming out of the quartz crisis, and then wanted to put all their competitors out of business by no longer supplying them with ETA movements, etc.  Unfortunately, the Swiss government stepped in to prevent free commerce.  As a result, all these manufacturers had to move in-house, and their marketing tells you that in-house is better

  • But, if in-house is better, why do in-house movements cost so much more?  As a business guy, my hypothesis is this:  "I gotta charge you a ton upfront, to cover all the downstream warranty costs I gotta eat, when the movement fails you!"

When it comes to complex mechanical components, to make something that will last 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and beyond, requires MASSIVE fixed cost R&D investment.  When that happens, you end up with "natural monopolies."  

Here are some other examples of natural monopolies:

  • Microsoft Windows

  • Shimano bicycle drive trains

  • ZF8 auto transmissions

  • Google search

What these all have in common is massive fixed cost R&D investment, that is then amortized over large numbers of units / transactions.  

When you try to create "in-house" alternatives, you end up utter crap - even if you have extremely deep pockets.  Back in the day, when IBM was a giant, they tried to come up with an alternative to Microsoft's OS, and created OS/2.  Utter crap and it died an ignominious death.  

Sram is trying to compete with Shimano, but their drive trains really only sell to a niche market.

Check out the Nissan CVT transmission.  If you Google it, the entire first page of results will link to class action lawsuits.  Arguably, CVT is why Nissan is considered such a lemon Japanese auto brand!

But, then again, admittedly, I haven't actually gone out and purchased the watch. So, I'm just another Internet keyboard warrior.

Image

Finally, new creator, Joshua...

Image
tonmed
·
Mr.Dee.Bater
Image

Per your own words...

You can come roast me on Watchcrunch.com

Okay! I'm here to oblige!

The new Superocean is one of the most beautiful watches to have been released in 2022. The fact that it uses a "workhorse" movement is a feature, not a bug!

I'm a broken record, but I'll say it again:

  • I would take an ETA or Sellita or Seiko or Miyota movement over an "in-house" 8 days a week

  • "Workhorse movements" have shown their reliability and quality in real-world, empirical, day-to-day use and abuse, for decades on end now

  • Parts are plentiful, any competent watch-maker is equipped to work on them, it's all relatively cheap to maintain, etc., etc.

  • The only reason that manufacturers are touting "in-house" movements is because the Swatch Group bought up all the movement manufacturers coming out of the quartz crisis, and then wanted to put all their competitors out of business by no longer supplying them with ETA movements, etc.  Unfortunately, the Swiss government stepped in to prevent free commerce.  As a result, all these manufacturers had to move in-house, and their marketing tells you that in-house is better

  • But, if in-house is better, why do in-house movements cost so much more?  As a business guy, my hypothesis is this:  "I gotta charge you a ton upfront, to cover all the downstream warranty costs I gotta eat, when the movement fails you!"

When it comes to complex mechanical components, to make something that will last 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and beyond, requires MASSIVE fixed cost R&D investment.  When that happens, you end up with "natural monopolies."  

Here are some other examples of natural monopolies:

  • Microsoft Windows

  • Shimano bicycle drive trains

  • ZF8 auto transmissions

  • Google search

What these all have in common is massive fixed cost R&D investment, that is then amortized over large numbers of units / transactions.  

When you try to create "in-house" alternatives, you end up utter crap - even if you have extremely deep pockets.  Back in the day, when IBM was a giant, they tried to come up with an alternative to Microsoft's OS, and created OS/2.  Utter crap and it died an ignominious death.  

Sram is trying to compete with Shimano, but their drive trains really only sell to a niche market.

Check out the Nissan CVT transmission.  If you Google it, the entire first page of results will link to class action lawsuits.  Arguably, CVT is why Nissan is considered such a lemon Japanese auto brand!

But, then again, admittedly, I haven't actually gone out and purchased the watch. So, I'm just another Internet keyboard warrior.

Image

Finally, new creator, Joshua...

Image

Firstly, I have only one reason for not liking the new superocean....the sledgehammer minute hand! Wish it was a bit more discrete.

But to your point, if Breitling has chosen to go for a workhorse movement, why is it priced like an in-house? They have no R&D or future warranty to makeup for here. This is the similar criticism Hoblot gets (plus many thinking they're ugly watches). If they were priced differently I think they would get better reviews is all I'm saying.

Mr.Dee.Bater
·
tonmed

Firstly, I have only one reason for not liking the new superocean....the sledgehammer minute hand! Wish it was a bit more discrete.

But to your point, if Breitling has chosen to go for a workhorse movement, why is it priced like an in-house? They have no R&D or future warranty to makeup for here. This is the similar criticism Hoblot gets (plus many thinking they're ugly watches). If they were priced differently I think they would get better reviews is all I'm saying.

You make a good point about the pricing. If I had to guess, I would say the following:

  • Good design costs a lot of money

  • Breitling have hired in lots of top-tier design talent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVvh6QrjgHU

  • Design is a fixed-cost and typically gets lumped under R&D, much the same way that movement design would fall under R&D - you have to amortize those costs over every unit sold

  • Although non-creative types, like myself, often poo-pooh the intangible stuff like art and design, bad design is like what Justice Stewart Potter said of pornography, "I know it when I see it"

Speaking of bad design / pornography...

Image
Unholy
·

interesting dial layout, but breitling premiere is my first choice for all breitling watch. also welcome joshua to wc crew, 🍺

Mr.Dee.Bater
·

You know what? Eff it! First watch I get in March 2024, when my home renovation fund is filled and I'm allowed to buy watches again, will be the Superocean. Either this one...

Image

Or this one...

Image

Or this one...

Image

This is the first time a negative review has convinced me to buy a watch!

Mr.Dee.Bater
·
Unholy

interesting dial layout, but breitling premiere is my first choice for all breitling watch. also welcome joshua to wc crew, 🍺

I originally bought both the Premiere B01...

Image

... and the AVI 1953 re-edition...

Image

... brand new. Both chronograph functions broke within 1 month of ownership. Both watches contain their in-house calibre B01 and B09, which is just the B01 but manual wind.

To my mind, in-house watch movement from smaller brands is equivalent to in-house auto transmission, when it comes to quality and reliability, a la Nissan CVT.

itsthedialman
·

Excellent review, and some good counterpoints made in the comments. My take is that it is a handsome watch, love the color, hate the minute hand, and think that it is overpriced by about $2K.

Max
·
SurferJohn

While I don't disagree with anything you said; I do have something to add. It is no secret I have very little love for the new Superocean; however, my love for Breitling remains long and deep.

Breitling was an early adopter of Ebauches, and as such they focused more on design and finishing; the stuff the customer could see and touch. This has been very successful for the brand, they use good ETA movements along with superb design and finishing.

There is a good off the shelf 60 minute totalizer movement available; Breitling had previously used this movement in their Hercules Pilot watches of the 2000's. But I think the reason it was ruled out on the new Superocean has more to do with waterproofing. It is very difficult and expensive to produce pushers that can be activated underwater. Avoiding the issue altogether, in this case that was the path they selected.

Coincidentally, Tag Heuer used this same movement with waterproof pushers on the Aquagraph models of the 2000's. Despite a small group of collector interest, the watch was not that successful and was swiftly and quietly discontinued.

I agree it would've been a risk to invest in a diving Chrono, but we want companies to take chances.

Look at what the Bel Canto has done for CW. But I guess Breitling is too big to bet the house like that.

Max
·
Jimmer

The Kelly Slater LE is the first Breitling I bought. Beautiful watch. When my wife saw it she said, 'that watch looks like it was made for you'. This isn't a watch you buy if it's your only watch, cause you wouldn't get it over, say, an Omega Seamaster 300M; however, if you have a few watches like I do (and many enthusiasts do) then it's a nice one to add. I have no regrets. I love mine.

Image

It's such a pretty watch 😍That's why I wanted to much for it to get the movement it deserves.

Max
·
Mr.Dee.Bater
Image

Per your own words...

You can come roast me on Watchcrunch.com

Okay! I'm here to oblige!

The new Superocean is one of the most beautiful watches to have been released in 2022. The fact that it uses a "workhorse" movement is a feature, not a bug!

I'm a broken record, but I'll say it again:

  • I would take an ETA or Sellita or Seiko or Miyota movement over an "in-house" 8 days a week

  • "Workhorse movements" have shown their reliability and quality in real-world, empirical, day-to-day use and abuse, for decades on end now

  • Parts are plentiful, any competent watch-maker is equipped to work on them, it's all relatively cheap to maintain, etc., etc.

  • The only reason that manufacturers are touting "in-house" movements is because the Swatch Group bought up all the movement manufacturers coming out of the quartz crisis, and then wanted to put all their competitors out of business by no longer supplying them with ETA movements, etc.  Unfortunately, the Swiss government stepped in to prevent free commerce.  As a result, all these manufacturers had to move in-house, and their marketing tells you that in-house is better

  • But, if in-house is better, why do in-house movements cost so much more?  As a business guy, my hypothesis is this:  "I gotta charge you a ton upfront, to cover all the downstream warranty costs I gotta eat, when the movement fails you!"

When it comes to complex mechanical components, to make something that will last 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and beyond, requires MASSIVE fixed cost R&D investment.  When that happens, you end up with "natural monopolies."  

Here are some other examples of natural monopolies:

  • Microsoft Windows

  • Shimano bicycle drive trains

  • ZF8 auto transmissions

  • Google search

What these all have in common is massive fixed cost R&D investment, that is then amortized over large numbers of units / transactions.  

When you try to create "in-house" alternatives, you end up utter crap - even if you have extremely deep pockets.  Back in the day, when IBM was a giant, they tried to come up with an alternative to Microsoft's OS, and created OS/2.  Utter crap and it died an ignominious death.  

Sram is trying to compete with Shimano, but their drive trains really only sell to a niche market.

Check out the Nissan CVT transmission.  If you Google it, the entire first page of results will link to class action lawsuits.  Arguably, CVT is why Nissan is considered such a lemon Japanese auto brand!

But, then again, admittedly, I haven't actually gone out and purchased the watch. So, I'm just another Internet keyboard warrior.

Image

Finally, new creator, Joshua...

Image

Haha I would've eloped with this watch if it was $3000. But the question is, what are we paying for? Mostly going to Brad Pitt I'm guessing, I don't like him THAT much...

37 more comments Load more...
Pete_NSOW
·
Max

I agree it would've been a risk to invest in a diving Chrono, but we want companies to take chances.

Look at what the Bel Canto has done for CW. But I guess Breitling is too big to bet the house like that.

Interesting - the bel canto is a module built on top of the same three hander sellita we are calling out here

Also CW didn't bet much on that module, its the end result of 8 years of incremental development from a jump hour to a chimer with no decoration to a decorated chimer. Meistersinger contributed a bunch of cash to its development along the way.

Finally, while CW paid a bunch of RD, there's little industrial investment, they are almost entirely reliant on third parties to produce the parts required for the chiming module (which is why it cant be made in numbers of more than a 1000 or so a year).

Dont get me wrong I think CW has done wonders with the bel canto but there are realities of its development and production people simply ignore when using it as an example of what other companies can/should do.

For Breitling - spending millions to develop a unique chrono movement that fit in the envelope of a bare sw200 wouldn't be a risk - as the probability of commercial failure would be 100% and "risk" implies there's at least some chance it wont be a commercial disaster.

Pete_NSOW
·
Darkoverlord

SOHs are a few hundred bucks more depending. Like the 44mm is $5k as opposed to $4750 and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a minor price hike coming to the SOH line.

Or maybe I’m wrong….lol

My take/gut feel(based on a rumour I heard)/prediction....

  1. My take - movement and pricing arent really that related except in our heads.

  2. Gut Feel - Breitling is working on an inhouse three hander workhorse, it will have the same basic dimensions of the SW200 (or perhaps SW300) and will drop sometime in 2024 (which George Kern basically said on a recent Scottish Watches podcast).

  3. Prediction - the new movement will be an easy engineering change for all existing Breitlings and will be progressively dropped into everything from 2024 with only a small price rise.

EightEyes
·

I appreciate the occasional honest negative review. It gives a lot more weight to the positive ones.

If you gush about everything, does any of it mean anything? I dislike a lot more watches than I like (thankfully!) and I'm sure it must be the same for content creators.

(I've even made my peace with @MWC2020 slamming my beloved Tudor Ranger.)

Fieldwalker
·

More vids trashing watches you think deserve it 🤘. New guy is for … tick tock vids 😬…

My general feelings on tick tock

Image

Back to the watch. That minute hand looks ridiculous.

Can you tell the time on it in the dim light? For diving, the key things are the pip on the bezel and the minute hand, and how easy to see in the dark.

The huge fat lume square doesn’t look look like it works well for tracking minutes in any amount of darkness 🤷‍♂

Yup it’s a few $k overpriced. For me it’s on par with a Captain Cook

For Breitling: An example of an easy to read lumed bezel and minute hand:

Image
Rolexahoma
·
tonmed

Firstly, I have only one reason for not liking the new superocean....the sledgehammer minute hand! Wish it was a bit more discrete.

But to your point, if Breitling has chosen to go for a workhorse movement, why is it priced like an in-house? They have no R&D or future warranty to makeup for here. This is the similar criticism Hoblot gets (plus many thinking they're ugly watches). If they were priced differently I think they would get better reviews is all I'm saying.

Totally agree. That minute hand is the only FUGLY thing on an otherwise handsome watch.

TimeJunkie
·

Great honest review. I do like the fact that you keep reviews in the positive. That said, I get the feeling you are hands on with more watches than me (probably most followers) . I always vibe honest from you and it is good to hear you give your true opinion on this watch. My son is pitching me to buy this watch: competitive swimmer, lifeguard, surfer... Kelly Slater is his GOAT. I'm staying tuned for something pre-owned in the future. I forgot to mention I gave my kid the bug of wearing watches for all water activities. Yep, if it's screw down (save GShock or Garmin) & it's water resistance rated, it goes in the ocean. You know I insure everything 😉. This pic is my kid wearing a Titanium Citizen Promaster surfing. I'll send a pic if I ever wrangle a Kelly Slater addition on the used market LOL.

Postscript: a set of killer pushers would have been a very cool movement & no I wouldn't let him surf with that one 😀

Image
Max
·
TimeJunkie

Great honest review. I do like the fact that you keep reviews in the positive. That said, I get the feeling you are hands on with more watches than me (probably most followers) . I always vibe honest from you and it is good to hear you give your true opinion on this watch. My son is pitching me to buy this watch: competitive swimmer, lifeguard, surfer... Kelly Slater is his GOAT. I'm staying tuned for something pre-owned in the future. I forgot to mention I gave my kid the bug of wearing watches for all water activities. Yep, if it's screw down (save GShock or Garmin) & it's water resistance rated, it goes in the ocean. You know I insure everything 😉. This pic is my kid wearing a Titanium Citizen Promaster surfing. I'll send a pic if I ever wrangle a Kelly Slater addition on the used market LOL.

Postscript: a set of killer pushers would have been a very cool movement & no I wouldn't let him surf with that one 😀

Image

Looks great on him! Good work on the youngster 😉

MarkCO
·

I went to the AD to see this yesterday, for me, it’s bloody awful…. 🤦‍♂

MilSpecd
·

I really like the 36, because I unfortunately have tiny wrists..

Mgapagnolo
·
Mr.Dee.Bater
Image

Per your own words...

You can come roast me on Watchcrunch.com

Okay! I'm here to oblige!

The new Superocean is one of the most beautiful watches to have been released in 2022. The fact that it uses a "workhorse" movement is a feature, not a bug!

I'm a broken record, but I'll say it again:

  • I would take an ETA or Sellita or Seiko or Miyota movement over an "in-house" 8 days a week

  • "Workhorse movements" have shown their reliability and quality in real-world, empirical, day-to-day use and abuse, for decades on end now

  • Parts are plentiful, any competent watch-maker is equipped to work on them, it's all relatively cheap to maintain, etc., etc.

  • The only reason that manufacturers are touting "in-house" movements is because the Swatch Group bought up all the movement manufacturers coming out of the quartz crisis, and then wanted to put all their competitors out of business by no longer supplying them with ETA movements, etc.  Unfortunately, the Swiss government stepped in to prevent free commerce.  As a result, all these manufacturers had to move in-house, and their marketing tells you that in-house is better

  • But, if in-house is better, why do in-house movements cost so much more?  As a business guy, my hypothesis is this:  "I gotta charge you a ton upfront, to cover all the downstream warranty costs I gotta eat, when the movement fails you!"

When it comes to complex mechanical components, to make something that will last 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and beyond, requires MASSIVE fixed cost R&D investment.  When that happens, you end up with "natural monopolies."  

Here are some other examples of natural monopolies:

  • Microsoft Windows

  • Shimano bicycle drive trains

  • ZF8 auto transmissions

  • Google search

What these all have in common is massive fixed cost R&D investment, that is then amortized over large numbers of units / transactions.  

When you try to create "in-house" alternatives, you end up utter crap - even if you have extremely deep pockets.  Back in the day, when IBM was a giant, they tried to come up with an alternative to Microsoft's OS, and created OS/2.  Utter crap and it died an ignominious death.  

Sram is trying to compete with Shimano, but their drive trains really only sell to a niche market.

Check out the Nissan CVT transmission.  If you Google it, the entire first page of results will link to class action lawsuits.  Arguably, CVT is why Nissan is considered such a lemon Japanese auto brand!

But, then again, admittedly, I haven't actually gone out and purchased the watch. So, I'm just another Internet keyboard warrior.

Image

Finally, new creator, Joshua...

Image

Excellent reply to OP

You and I have the same sentiments on in-house movements. ETA movements are excellent and will cost less to own in the long run. They are proven movements. In my opinion, the price is high, but most watches I like are.

I am considering the Chonomat 40 GMT it has a Breitling 32 movement. Does anybody know what that movement is?

Mgapagnolo
·

I think the yellow dial is the best color and with the rubber wrist band, I think it looks good.

Mgapagnolo
·
Mr.Dee.Bater

You know what? Eff it! First watch I get in March 2024, when my home renovation fund is filled and I'm allowed to buy watches again, will be the Superocean. Either this one...

Image

Or this one...

Image

Or this one...

Image

This is the first time a negative review has convinced me to buy a watch!

I like your thinking!

ChadDipps
·

Breitling been having some nice watches lately.

Granddanois
·
Jimmer

The Kelly Slater LE is the first Breitling I bought. Beautiful watch. When my wife saw it she said, 'that watch looks like it was made for you'. This isn't a watch you buy if it's your only watch, cause you wouldn't get it over, say, an Omega Seamaster 300M; however, if you have a few watches like I do (and many enthusiasts do) then it's a nice one to add. I have no regrets. I love mine.

Image

Beautiful

JLWatches
·

I watched your video on this model again today! I recently got an older model SuperOcean Steelfish as my first Breitling. Love it!!

When this new gen of super ocean came out I was skeptical at first. The last generation was my favorite without a doubt. The new one is growing on me for sure, but the only thing that kills me are the hands for sure.