Does the Swiss made tag still mean a lot?

The two watches pictured are the only Swiss watches that I own, and it would not surprise me if the Swatch was mostly made outside of Switzerland. There is no question in my mind that some of the most sought after brands: Rolex, Omega, Patek Phillipe, AP, VC etc. are Swiss companie, but us that the only thing that is still holding the Swiss tag up or are people still drawn to a Swiss made watch over one made from elsewhere? I am not trying to bad mouth the Swiss brand, I tend to buy more Japanese, but if I was willing to pay luxury prices I’d look at those Swiss companies, but what happens if a lesser known brand has Swiss made on them? Have they got a leg up over other brands that are similar or do people not really care?

Again I am not passing judgement either way I just don’t know and am curious about what people who know about this think. Personally I go first on price and then on the individual watch, paying more attention to brands I’ve heard of, when buying a new watch. 

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That's a really interesting question.  What it's really getting at is how much of a pull does geographical provenance have?  Very cool!

For me, personally, with regard to watches, I would say that "Swiss made" has nearly zero pull.  In fact, in many ways, it's probably a big negative.  High labor costs without any offsetting technological / manufacturing process or other compensatory factors tells me that "Swiss made" is just going to mean really high cost; therefore, quality-to-price ain't in its favor.

I would imagine that in a low-information environment, geographical provenance would have lots of pull.  Imagine, pre-Internet, consumers didn't have the ability to easily investigate any given product's quality, beyond brand recognition, curation by a middleman, or just generally knowing "Ah, Florida is supposed to have good oranges, so if the label says it's from Florida, it must be good."

Now that Google can provide us all with thousands upon thousands of consumer reviews of any product, from anywhere in the world, within 10 milliseconds of hitting the search button, I suspect geographical provenance has lost some of its importance.

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Mr.Dee.Bater

That's a really interesting question.  What it's really getting at is how much of a pull does geographical provenance have?  Very cool!

For me, personally, with regard to watches, I would say that "Swiss made" has nearly zero pull.  In fact, in many ways, it's probably a big negative.  High labor costs without any offsetting technological / manufacturing process or other compensatory factors tells me that "Swiss made" is just going to mean really high cost; therefore, quality-to-price ain't in its favor.

I would imagine that in a low-information environment, geographical provenance would have lots of pull.  Imagine, pre-Internet, consumers didn't have the ability to easily investigate any given product's quality, beyond brand recognition, curation by a middleman, or just generally knowing "Ah, Florida is supposed to have good oranges, so if the label says it's from Florida, it must be good."

Now that Google can provide us all with thousands upon thousands of consumer reviews of any product, from anywhere in the world, within 10 milliseconds of hitting the search button, I suspect geographical provenance has lost some of its importance.

That’s a great point. I had thought to mention something about modern communications effects but didn’t want to make this question too lengthy. But I agree that has had an effect on geographical provenance. 

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As you will know, the Swiss watch industry has tight regulations about what can be described as a 'Swiss watch'.  I don't have those with me but they can be easily found on the net.

On the issue of Swatch, the company says that, apart from some small parts of the watch being made in China or Japan, the rest of the watch is made and assembled in Switzerland. Swatch watches are probably more 'Swiss' than many other makes. It is also worth noting that Swatch is the largest watch group in the world. 

The Swatch watch allows most people who want a watch, to own a genuine Swiss watch.

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Munky1

As you will know, the Swiss watch industry has tight regulations about what can be described as a 'Swiss watch'.  I don't have those with me but they can be easily found on the net.

On the issue of Swatch, the company says that, apart from some small parts of the watch being made in China or Japan, the rest of the watch is made and assembled in Switzerland. Swatch watches are probably more 'Swiss' than many other makes. It is also worth noting that Swatch is the largest watch group in the world. 

The Swatch watch allows most people who want a watch, to own a genuine Swiss watch.

I am actually incredibly ignorant on most of this, which is one reason I like this forum as people will take the time to let you know this stuff. 
I find the information about Swatch very interesting although it does make me question something @Omeganut brought up. Why are Swiss watches seen as being more expensive? Are they? Should I stop bringing in lots of other question on the one thread?😉

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There is an Invicta you could call swiss made with a SW200 movement which is over 60% of the value. The SW200 is a clone of the ETA 2824 and there are at least 2 Chinese quality clones of it too. They can R & D it in Switzerland but produce it in China with Swiss quality parts and call it swiss made as they add promotion value to the R & D value to outweigh the 40% production cost.

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Matt84

I am actually incredibly ignorant on most of this, which is one reason I like this forum as people will take the time to let you know this stuff. 
I find the information about Swatch very interesting although it does make me question something @Omeganut brought up. Why are Swiss watches seen as being more expensive? Are they? Should I stop bringing in lots of other question on the one thread?😉

Hey man, everything I know about watches, I learned from the hundreds of Watchfinder videos.  In fact, I've watched EVERY SINGLE ONE.  No joke.

  • So, luxury watches originally were all made in France and England
  • Swiss watches were being assembled by Swiss farmers, during the winter, when they had nothing to do, because everything was under 200 feet of snow or whatever it is that happens in the winter in Switzerland - like maybe the country is overrun by dire wolves?  Whatever
  • Swiss watches were originally thought of the way we think of Chinese watches - derivative and cheap
  • Eventually, the Swiss climbed the learning curve, and the French had their revolution, and the English...  I don't know...  lost their colonies?  Were too busy playing cricket?
  • So, Swiss watchmaking became a thing, and the Swiss dominated the industry until the Quartz Crisis, and then recovered, and it's still a thing

There's this  thing called Agglomeration Effects:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration

  • Think of Silicon Valley or the Diamond District in NYC or Hollywood, etc., etc.
  • When there are a bunch of people with expertise in a concentrated geographical location, you're better able to source talent, you have spillover effects, there's cross-pollination of ideas and innovation, etc., etc.

At some point, though...  if there's no real innovation in a field, you don't really have any benefits from geographical concentration.  Take cars, for example.  Once upon a time, there was lots of innovation in car-making.  So...  Detroit is the perfect example of agglomeration in car making.  However, real innovation in car making stopped some time ago.  It just didn't matter anymore if you were in Detroit or not.  And, in fact, new innovation took place in Japan, at Toyota, when Toyota created Toyota Production Systems - which has been generalized into "lean manufacturing."  So, Detroit came to an end, and this is what you have there now:

Detroit's new 5-year revitalization plan might not just sit on shelf, like  plans in most cities

Watchmaking is a lot like car manufacturing.  There really ain't anymore important innovation.  So, really, there ain't any benefits from geographical concentration anymore either.  The real innovation in watchmaking is in applying lean manufacturing to watches, to make them more reliable, more varied, and higher quality-to-price ratio.  Again, you see that happening in Japan.  In this analogy, Detroit = Swiss and Japan = Japan.

Which is why you see Grand Seiko going from 25th in revenue in the U.S. in 2016 to 5th in 2020, just like how Toyota and Honda displaced the Big 3 in the U.S. in the 70s.

Here's another example of useless agglomeration - bubbly wine.  I mean, bubbly wine all tastes the same!  But, if your bubbly wine comes from a particular region in France, you get to call it champagne.  If it doesn't, you have to call it "sparkling wine."  I don't care what you call it.  It all tastes the same!  I don't care if the bottle has the words "made in France" or whatever on it.  So long as it's got alcohol in it, and I've had a long day, I'll drink it!  

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Most of my watches happen to be Swiss made, but the designation means very little to me - I'm more concerned with other aspects of a watch than I am about the county of origin. 

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The nearest approximation that I can think of is French wine.  Wine grapes can be grown anywhere where the terrain and climate is favorable, however, very few places have 2000 years of wine making experience like France.  You can drink perfectly good wine from any number of countries and you aren't going to miss much.  However, sometimes the French can marry a style to a grape in a way that is not possible elsewhere.

The Swiss watch industry was once like China is now and Japan and Hong Kong were in the 1960's and 1970's.  Before wrist watches the center of the clock world was once London.  @AlbertaTime collected some links in a comment awhile back.  The Swiss specialized early and punched above their weight in the early 20th Century.  The Second World War gave the Swiss a competitive advantage that they did not relinquish until the poorly named "Quartz Crisis." Allied and Axis watch makers turned to making timers and gauges for tanks and airplanes.  The neutral Swiss could keep making and improving watches.  The American and British watch industries never completely recovered and most had to rely on Swiss movements from that point forward.

The watch industry is central to Switzerland's economy and culture in a way that is not true in other countries.  The Germans and Japanese pride themselves on accuracy and precision, but they apply these traits to electronics, automobiles, and other industries.  For the Swiss it is about watches.

Since the 1960's the Swiss watch companies have merged, combined, gone bankrupt, been sold off, or have quietly faded away.  The whole deck has been shuffled.  Hamilton was American, is now Swiss.  Invicta was Swiss, is now American (although made in various countries). Titoni was Swiss, is now really Chinese.  Wittnauer was American and Swiss and is now Japanese.  

I would argue that there is still value in the label "Swiss Made", however just like wine, you can lead a full collecting life without paying the Swiss premium.  More than half of my watches are Swiss or have Swiss movements. I am happy with that balance.

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Honestly was surprised to find out my Burberry watch was Swiss made.

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Here is an interesting article regarding "Swiss Made" some few years back.   The article is basically saying all the parts can possibly be sourced outside of Switzerland and be "Swiss Made" based on the existing rules.

https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/swiss-made

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Nup. Aside from Rolex, the luxury brands, and a handful of independents trying to keep Swiss content high (shout out to Milus), most 'Swiss Made' watches are largely Chinese. Nothing wrong with that. China makes great watches, Switzerland makes great watches, Japan makes great watches...

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I know this will get some riled up, but I think the value or lack thereof of "Swiss Made" is similar to the "value" of the name of the university you attended. 

If someone attended an Ivy League it suggests value for that person when considered on a resume versus a State University. Are graduates of the Ivy League really better value than State University graduates? After about 40 years in business seeing the best and brightest, my answer would be no. 

However, having an Ivy League degree on a resume still sets that person apart from others. Clear and simple it is branding - if we value the brand then we are willing to pay more for it. Ergo Swiss versus everyone else.

Putting aside the amazing quality of Japanese watches, aren't German watches just as well made as Swiss watches? I mean how could you not consider A Lange & Sohne, Glashutte, Hanhart, Moritz Grossman,Nomos, Sinn, Stowa, Wempe and many others top flight watches.

For me, it's not the country of origin, it's the quality of the mechanics of the watch and the quality of the design.

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Jody from “Just One More Watch” just did a piece entitled “does ‘Made in Germany’ actually mean anything?”

https://youtu.be/1n__orwqY-U
 

He discussed “Swiss made” as well. TL;DR: “Swiss made” doesn’t mean all that much, and “made in Germany”, even less.

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OldSnafu

There is an Invicta you could call swiss made with a SW200 movement which is over 60% of the value. The SW200 is a clone of the ETA 2824 and there are at least 2 Chinese quality clones of it too. They can R & D it in Switzerland but produce it in China with Swiss quality parts and call it swiss made as they add promotion value to the R & D value to outweigh the 40% production cost.

That’s interesting as to me it seems as though the rules for calling something Swiss made has more to do with the money that gets put into the Swiss economy rather than how much of the watch is produced in Switzerland. I’m guessing this shouldn’t affect quality as the parts are Swiss QC can be performed by the brands themselves and as @jason_recliner pointed out China makes some quality watches. 
Doesn’t change my mind about anything but it’s good to know, thanks 🙏 

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Mr.Dee.Bater

Hey man, everything I know about watches, I learned from the hundreds of Watchfinder videos.  In fact, I've watched EVERY SINGLE ONE.  No joke.

  • So, luxury watches originally were all made in France and England
  • Swiss watches were being assembled by Swiss farmers, during the winter, when they had nothing to do, because everything was under 200 feet of snow or whatever it is that happens in the winter in Switzerland - like maybe the country is overrun by dire wolves?  Whatever
  • Swiss watches were originally thought of the way we think of Chinese watches - derivative and cheap
  • Eventually, the Swiss climbed the learning curve, and the French had their revolution, and the English...  I don't know...  lost their colonies?  Were too busy playing cricket?
  • So, Swiss watchmaking became a thing, and the Swiss dominated the industry until the Quartz Crisis, and then recovered, and it's still a thing

There's this  thing called Agglomeration Effects:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration

  • Think of Silicon Valley or the Diamond District in NYC or Hollywood, etc., etc.
  • When there are a bunch of people with expertise in a concentrated geographical location, you're better able to source talent, you have spillover effects, there's cross-pollination of ideas and innovation, etc., etc.

At some point, though...  if there's no real innovation in a field, you don't really have any benefits from geographical concentration.  Take cars, for example.  Once upon a time, there was lots of innovation in car-making.  So...  Detroit is the perfect example of agglomeration in car making.  However, real innovation in car making stopped some time ago.  It just didn't matter anymore if you were in Detroit or not.  And, in fact, new innovation took place in Japan, at Toyota, when Toyota created Toyota Production Systems - which has been generalized into "lean manufacturing."  So, Detroit came to an end, and this is what you have there now:

Detroit's new 5-year revitalization plan might not just sit on shelf, like  plans in most cities

Watchmaking is a lot like car manufacturing.  There really ain't anymore important innovation.  So, really, there ain't any benefits from geographical concentration anymore either.  The real innovation in watchmaking is in applying lean manufacturing to watches, to make them more reliable, more varied, and higher quality-to-price ratio.  Again, you see that happening in Japan.  In this analogy, Detroit = Swiss and Japan = Japan.

Which is why you see Grand Seiko going from 25th in revenue in the U.S. in 2016 to 5th in 2020, just like how Toyota and Honda displaced the Big 3 in the U.S. in the 70s.

Here's another example of useless agglomeration - bubbly wine.  I mean, bubbly wine all tastes the same!  But, if your bubbly wine comes from a particular region in France, you get to call it champagne.  If it doesn't, you have to call it "sparkling wine."  I don't care what you call it.  It all tastes the same!  I don't care if the bottle has the words "made in France" or whatever on it.  So long as it's got alcohol in it, and I've had a long day, I'll drink it!  

Thanks for this comment, two of my biggest interests are history and watches and you managed to get in both 👏. I like the car analogy and it does clarify things a bit, although would Swiss watches be seen more like top brand German cars now? 

Got to admit I’m more a beer and whisky guy myself but I get the wine reference😉. 

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Matt84

It’s great to have an alternative viewpoint, so if I understand you right you use the brand as a litmus test in much the same way @ChronoGuy mentioned? Similar to how recruiters will pick Ivy League graduates over those who graduated from other schools?

I think that’s a good way of putting it - I know where I am with Smiths for example: England = those are the ones, Britain = pin-lever or basic movements, Swiss or something else = end of life, avoid like the plague.

Swiss kind of implies, for vintage, that it might be an ok movement, but then I have to factor brand, dial, complication layout, crown position, some other little details as well. If I can’t see the movement then it’s sometimes a combination of some of those that make me go - nope, not today. 

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ChronoGuy

Exactly! If you really want a superb Swiss Made watch that is 100% Swiss Made then think about Parmigiani Fleurier. Since it is owned by the Sandoz Foundation, all of the companies that make the parts for Parmigiani are Swiss companies that make all of their parts in Switzerland - true vertically owned organization. These companies also make many of the parts used by the top Swiss brands.

Here is my recent favorite from Parmigiani...

Image

that watch looks very elegant . well done

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Porthole

Yes - it mean something to me, because it’s usually one of the only clues I have to go on when I’m considering the next lost cause. It’s also a good clue for random Smiths and other watches for determining what kind of movement might lie inside. It’s not an amazing clue - I’d still need to pop the back and observe, but its a good yay/nay indicator.

Sorry to go against the current vibe, but what else would you expect 😀

Quality and value opposing gross profit is the Difference between all Swiss and Barely legally Swiss. All about the money when greed comes to the table.

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ChronoGuy

Exactly! If you really want a superb Swiss Made watch that is 100% Swiss Made then think about Parmigiani Fleurier. Since it is owned by the Sandoz Foundation, all of the companies that make the parts for Parmigiani are Swiss companies that make all of their parts in Switzerland - true vertically owned organization. These companies also make many of the parts used by the top Swiss brands.

Here is my recent favorite from Parmigiani...

Image

That does look great, and really 100% made in Switzerland? Is that reflected in the price?

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OldSnafu

Quality and value opposing gross profit is the Difference between all Swiss and Barely legally Swiss. All about the money when greed comes to the table.

I think by the time a watch is coming my way any profit is long out of the window. I’m talking 40s-60s wrecks, brands long-time dead. I just want to know if it’s a decent movement and then I’ll save it. Its not the only indicator, but it can tell me something when considered in conjunction with a variety of other factors. I have a checklist in my head.

If I’m going high-end, then I’m looking at other criteria rather than if it says Swiss on the dial.

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Matt84

That does look great, and really 100% made in Switzerland? Is that reflected in the price?

Unfortunately, the answer is "Yes". However, the nice thing about Parmigiani is that on the secondary market you can usually get very good deals. You can also negotiate on the price for brand new from an AD. Very different from Rolex and these watches are built at a complexity and quality level as high as Patek, if not higher. So for less than the price of a Rolex, you can have a watch that is equal to or superior to a Patek.

This is again the benefit we have of a brand not being "popular" and overrated. Parmigiani has been upping their game on branding so that may not last forever.

The Company's namesake is Michel Parmigiani who is one of the greatest living watchmakers. He is up there at the same level as Francois Paul Journe.

The recently released Tonda series is really elegant and has been getting a significant amount of attention and press.

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Porthole

I think by the time a watch is coming my way any profit is long out of the window. I’m talking 40s-60s wrecks, brands long-time dead. I just want to know if it’s a decent movement and then I’ll save it. Its not the only indicator, but it can tell me something when considered in conjunction with a variety of other factors. I have a checklist in my head.

If I’m going high-end, then I’m looking at other criteria rather than if it says Swiss on the dial.

I agree.  "Swiss Made" or "Switzerland" mean something more in a vintage context.  From the American side:  a Swiss movement in an Elgin, Waltham, or Hamilton (old Hamilton, not new Hamilton) is less desirable because those brands only starting using Swiss movements when they had become zombie brands and were foundering.  However, for Gruen, Bulova, and Wittnauer it means the opposite.  Those brands imported great Swiss movements and were generally better made than other American brands and the "Swiss" was part of their reputation. 

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Aurelian

The nearest approximation that I can think of is French wine.  Wine grapes can be grown anywhere where the terrain and climate is favorable, however, very few places have 2000 years of wine making experience like France.  You can drink perfectly good wine from any number of countries and you aren't going to miss much.  However, sometimes the French can marry a style to a grape in a way that is not possible elsewhere.

The Swiss watch industry was once like China is now and Japan and Hong Kong were in the 1960's and 1970's.  Before wrist watches the center of the clock world was once London.  @AlbertaTime collected some links in a comment awhile back.  The Swiss specialized early and punched above their weight in the early 20th Century.  The Second World War gave the Swiss a competitive advantage that they did not relinquish until the poorly named "Quartz Crisis." Allied and Axis watch makers turned to making timers and gauges for tanks and airplanes.  The neutral Swiss could keep making and improving watches.  The American and British watch industries never completely recovered and most had to rely on Swiss movements from that point forward.

The watch industry is central to Switzerland's economy and culture in a way that is not true in other countries.  The Germans and Japanese pride themselves on accuracy and precision, but they apply these traits to electronics, automobiles, and other industries.  For the Swiss it is about watches.

Since the 1960's the Swiss watch companies have merged, combined, gone bankrupt, been sold off, or have quietly faded away.  The whole deck has been shuffled.  Hamilton was American, is now Swiss.  Invicta was Swiss, is now American (although made in various countries). Titoni was Swiss, is now really Chinese.  Wittnauer was American and Swiss and is now Japanese.  

I would argue that there is still value in the label "Swiss Made", however just like wine, you can lead a full collecting life without paying the Swiss premium.  More than half of my watches are Swiss or have Swiss movements. I am happy with that balance.

Since the 1960's the Swiss watch companies have merged, combined, gone bankrupt, been sold off, or have quietly faded away.

Just be glad they didn't pull a British Leyland, who was doing the same thing with British automobile marques around the same time!  Unlike "Swiss made", the British Leyland logo was more of a warning...

(He says as the owner of a British Leyland-era MG)

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Porthole

Yes - it mean something to me, because it’s usually one of the only clues I have to go on when I’m considering the next lost cause. It’s also a good clue for random Smiths and other watches for determining what kind of movement might lie inside. It’s not an amazing clue - I’d still need to pop the back and observe, but its a good yay/nay indicator.

Sorry to go against the current vibe, but what else would you expect 😀

I agree it means more for vintage watches, than current offerings.

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complication

It's just a useful example to just keep in mind that, like I said originally, some Swiss Made stuff is so Swiss it couldn't be any more Swiss than if you were eating Swiss chocolate, that you'd opened with a Swiss Army knife, while yodelling on a mountainside. Other Swiss Made stuff, maybe not as much. Always investigate :)

Duly noted thanks for the advice. 👌

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ChronoGuy

Unfortunately, the answer is "Yes". However, the nice thing about Parmigiani is that on the secondary market you can usually get very good deals. You can also negotiate on the price for brand new from an AD. Very different from Rolex and these watches are built at a complexity and quality level as high as Patek, if not higher. So for less than the price of a Rolex, you can have a watch that is equal to or superior to a Patek.

This is again the benefit we have of a brand not being "popular" and overrated. Parmigiani has been upping their game on branding so that may not last forever.

The Company's namesake is Michel Parmigiani who is one of the greatest living watchmakers. He is up there at the same level as Francois Paul Journe.

The recently released Tonda series is really elegant and has been getting a significant amount of attention and press.

Thank you I have to admi that I hadn’t heard of the brand, but I’ll keep an eye out. 

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mrequenes

Jody from “Just One More Watch” just did a piece entitled “does ‘Made in Germany’ actually mean anything?”

https://youtu.be/1n__orwqY-U
 

He discussed “Swiss made” as well. TL;DR: “Swiss made” doesn’t mean all that much, and “made in Germany”, even less.

Thanks for the link the guys entertaining as well as informative I’m going to have to start following him. 

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Aurelian

I agree.  "Swiss Made" or "Switzerland" mean something more in a vintage context.  From the American side:  a Swiss movement in an Elgin, Waltham, or Hamilton (old Hamilton, not new Hamilton) is less desirable because those brands only starting using Swiss movements when they had become zombie brands and were foundering.  However, for Gruen, Bulova, and Wittnauer it means the opposite.  Those brands imported great Swiss movements and were generally better made than other American brands and the "Swiss" was part of their reputation. 

Same with Smiths - towards the end it was a complete bunfight for movements.

Interestingly, the Gruen G.M.C. has etched on the back Thai movement and Swiss parts, which I think reflects the ETA it uses, similar to a lot of my quartz Tags. State of the game in the 80s. Love this watch though.

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Porthole

Same with Smiths - towards the end it was a complete bunfight for movements.

Interestingly, the Gruen G.M.C. has etched on the back Thai movement and Swiss parts, which I think reflects the ETA it uses, similar to a lot of my quartz Tags. State of the game in the 80s. Love this watch though.

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Image

This is a nice little summary of Gruen:  http://www.thewatchguy.com/pages/GRUEN.html 

Since sometime around 1980 the trademark has been owned by M.Z. Berger (MZB) that licensed them to be made in China (with Elgin and Waltham, other names that they own).

The end of Gruen, Elgin, and Waltham is truly sad.  Hamilton and Bulova got a second chapter. It would be better if they just were allowed to cease to exist.

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Aurelian

This is a nice little summary of Gruen:  http://www.thewatchguy.com/pages/GRUEN.html 

Since sometime around 1980 the trademark has been owned by M.Z. Berger (MZB) that licensed them to be made in China (with Elgin and Waltham, other names that they own).

The end of Gruen, Elgin, and Waltham is truly sad.  Hamilton and Bulova got a second chapter. It would be better if they just were allowed to cease to exist.

It is sad, and I agree. Saying that, I like the G.M.C. I thinks it’s a nice final chapter to Gruen, for me, in a rugged field watch package. The General’s Last Stand.