Bites: 3-6-9, Omega no longer making moon watches? and Weekly Watch Puzzles!
Happy New Year Watch Fam!
Come join me again for our virtual Tuesday morning 'Coffee and Watches' meetup. Today I'm enjoying my favourite English Breakfast and practicing my photography skills now the Weekly Photography Thread is back up and running.
Today I have learned that cleaning the watch before taking the photograph is generally a good idea and that my photography skills are definitely a work in progress!
If you want to see your photo here instead of my dubious efforts then post your 'coffee and watches' shots below and I will pick one for the next newsletter to show alongside the winner of the weekly photo theme.
This weeks beautiful top photo is thanks to our winner from the last Weekly Theme post way back in October, @thepianissimist.
Right folks. Grab a coffee and a biscuit (or the mince pies if you aren't sick of them yet) and get ready to dig into some topics.
3-6-9
3 topics from the WC universe, with 6 cool posts from the community and 9 awesome photos sprinkled throughout.
This week...
Where does heritage live?
Have Omega stopped making moon watches?
Which watch would blow your mind in 2023?
With the new year before us lets start by looking back…
#heritage
Where does brand heritage lie?
Is it all in the name on the dial and past achievements? Or perhaps it is more connected to the enduring values and craftsmanship in the watchmaking and design?
Many watch brands have been bought and sold over the years, some have died and been resurrected, but where does the true heritage of the brand lie, and can it be so easily obtained by the highest bidder?
When Smiths was brought back to life by Timefactors they put the newly purchased name on a vintage dial design from their newly purchased back catalogue and imbued it with the story of Everest. (See @Max's post What the hell is Smiths?) So does simply having enough money to buy the name allow you to lay claim to all the history of the brand, or does any of it need to be earned?
Throughout his 'Destroys Watches' series @Porthole also does some exploration of watch heritage. In episode 2 he discusses the shared claim to the Everest story of Smiths and Rolex, and in episode 7 he delves into the darker side of watch heritage when he looks at some military watches with unpleasant history.
In the most recent episode 9 @Aurelian takes the role of guest editor and looks at the shady history of Ball and Santa Fe, to which @thekris responds:
"I'm getting the impression that, given enough time, marketing transforms into "heritage". This makes me wonder if anybody's heritage is actually impressive, or is it all a bunch of Wilsdorfian self promotion?"
At the end of the day perhaps heritage is just all down to choosing your story and telling it well.
What about the evolution of heritage….
#notamoonwatch
@CelineSimon wrote a fantastic guide to the Speedmaster which included wonderfully detailed information about the changes in size and movement that it has undergone over the years.
So what can change and what needs to stay the same for the Speedmaster to retain its 'moon watch' title? Is simply having 'Speedmaster' on the dial of an Omega chronograph sufficient? In that case does the MoonSwatch have just as much claim to the title as the original speedy?
Or is the movement the defining feature, and if so how far can it evolve until it can no longer be called 'The watch that went to the moon'? Have we perhaps already past that point?
Will the moon watch soon become old news anyway if Omega manage to strap a Marstimer to the side of the next Mars rover?
Looking to the future…
#WOTY23
With some interesting discussions and debates being had regarding the '22 watch of the year, and the top watches of '23, I've been thinking.... What would I be excited to see in the watch world this year?
What could watch brands do in '23 to build on their legacy for the future?
What the Bel Canto and the MoonSwatch have both done this year is succeeding in making different areas of the watch world more attainable. A high-end complication and a luxury brand label at price points previously impossible. Given the rise in luxury watch prices across the board this year I really hope the trend of innovating for affordability continues.
What would really get you excited about a watch in 2023?
Where does the heritage of a watch brand live for you?
How far can a watch develop from its initial form before it becomes something new?
Come share your thoughts with me below, show us your photography skills (or laugh at mine) in the weekly photo thread and, most importantly, show me what you're drinking!
Now, the best bit.
The Weekly Watch Puzzles!
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Todays watch anagram: PANTS ROTA
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If you want to work your brain a bit harder try solving this watchy cryptic clue: 'Look at making a phone call'
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And I call this game The @Edge168n special (after his next level watch spotting abilities).... Can you identify the well known watch in the picture below?
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That's all for this week!
Take care of yourselves my friends.
Part-time 'writter' @ The Escapement Room, the NSFW watch enthusiasts blog. www.theescapementroom.com/
More from DeeperBlue
Thanks for the post, you've brought my attention to several things I missed this week.
"At the end of the day perhaps heritage is just all down to choosing your story and telling it well."
Nailed it. Heritage, true or otherwise, is a story the maker tells us about their watches. The better the story and the telling, the more we'll pay. As cynical as that sounds, I'm as much a buyer of "heritage" as anyone.
As for the Speedy, there's an interesting point here. I chose the hesalite version as it was closer to the original than the sapphire, but is it close enough? Am I justified in claiming to own a Moonwatch? For me, the answer is yes, obviously, or I would have spent my money elsewhere. Now, how much more can the watch change and still be a Moonwatch? The obvious answer to that is that everything after what I bought is too much of a change.
Love these!
I don't get to guess right? Because this one feels pretty easy.
Love these!
I don't get to guess right? Because this one feels pretty easy.
You can guess... Or DM me and I will let you know if you're right 👍
@Edge168n guessed his eponymous puzzle correctly. 👏
Great piece! I love all the discussions about purchased legacy. So much of it going on in the industry, much from hedge fund types dumping money to private labels to remake the catalog.
I had never bothered looking at the history of Ball and Sante Fe. Props to @Aurelian and @Porthole for putting that together.
Interesting thread, i guess nowaday heritage just a marketing terms watch brand use this day to add more "value" To certain model but we the watchnerd are always find the story charming and the brand know that. In fact i bought the glycine airman because of the story about being the first gmt just like the story of a moonwatch. And i like to tell my friends that story after drinking a few beers lol. As for the modern smiths i agree with all of your point, its more like reclaiming the herritage of an old brand. But i always want a smiths everest for my gada watch collection, unfortunately they always sold out 🤣
Re: Moonwatch, to me it’s the fact that NASA qualified it to go to the Moon, been a part of every space program since then, and still issues it to astronauts today. Everything will get upgraded over time to improve the watch with better technology. But the heritage is still there for me. I could go to the Moon today wearing my watch and know that it’ll work just fine, and even better than the originals since it’s now METAS certified. In my dreams I’m already there!
NATO STRAP (edit: pipped to the post by not refreshing my browser)
still don’t know last weeks.
Moonwatch is so sixties retro, but eighties shuttle mania and digital is where it’s at. Blue PJs, white socks, and a G-Shock.
Beaten to the anagram... but it is Nato Strap.
Cryptic ... hmmm 🤔
The mystery watch is ... I'll DM you.
Great piece! I love all the discussions about purchased legacy. So much of it going on in the industry, much from hedge fund types dumping money to private labels to remake the catalog.
I had never bothered looking at the history of Ball and Sante Fe. Props to @Aurelian and @Porthole for putting that together.
I ask a lot of questions and provide few answer, but I'm happy if it provokes some thought 👍
Interesting thread, i guess nowaday heritage just a marketing terms watch brand use this day to add more "value" To certain model but we the watchnerd are always find the story charming and the brand know that. In fact i bought the glycine airman because of the story about being the first gmt just like the story of a moonwatch. And i like to tell my friends that story after drinking a few beers lol. As for the modern smiths i agree with all of your point, its more like reclaiming the herritage of an old brand. But i always want a smiths everest for my gada watch collection, unfortunately they always sold out 🤣
I am an absolute sucker for a good story. The Speedmaster, the Santos, the GS's with the massively romanticised dials.... all the marketing works a treat on me 🤦♀️
Interesting!
So heritage to you is perhaps more to do with confidence in the brands future?
And regarding the Speedmaster, do you feel any variation in the movement from the original one that went to the moon means it no longer qualifies as a 'moon watch' in your eyes?
I think that's my feeling about it.
Re: Moonwatch, to me it’s the fact that NASA qualified it to go to the Moon, been a part of every space program since then, and still issues it to astronauts today. Everything will get upgraded over time to improve the watch with better technology. But the heritage is still there for me. I could go to the Moon today wearing my watch and know that it’ll work just fine, and even better than the originals since it’s now METAS certified. In my dreams I’m already there!
So as long as it's NASA certified it will always be a moonwatch in your eyes, because of what previous models achieved? Even if it's never been to the moon? Would calling it a 'space watch' feel like a disservice?
NATO STRAP (edit: pipped to the post by not refreshing my browser)
still don’t know last weeks.
Moonwatch is so sixties retro, but eighties shuttle mania and digital is where it’s at. Blue PJs, white socks, and a G-Shock.
Last week's was Ali Express 👍
I agree about digital! The Mars Timer is part digital and I LOVE it!
It's the REAL Mission to Mars.
Beaten to the anagram... but it is Nato Strap.
Cryptic ... hmmm 🤔
The mystery watch is ... I'll DM you.
You are correct with your watch picture guess! 👏
To me "Heritage" only matters if it has been carried through in the sense that a design was originally made, and then the same design has been evolved and technically improved throughout time. I don't care about marketing stories, if they're cool sure we can tell them, but it only matters to me if it represents something that has a high quality product infront of it. Marketing just helps justify a price, so we pay for the "Heritage" story as much as we do for the watch.
As for the moonwatch, I'll use my go to analogies with guitars (because everyone else seems to use cars). A Fender Telecaster from the 50s and a current production model are nearly identical. They look the same, but even the pickups, wood, and colour are nearly the same. Not exactly the same, but not far from it. Why? Because Leo Fender made a very robust and inexpensive product that could be massed produced. Mission accomplished, even decades later, still a robust, simple product that can be replicated to the end of time. That said, Fender now makes "fancy" versions of the Tele that are still called a Telecaster. Maybe a fancier set of pickups, maybe a slight body modification, nicer finish, etc. They've also improved their manufacturing methods to be more consistent and efficient. Hundreds of succesful and famous artists use Telecasters to this day.
Mechanical watches are more complex products to manufacture, but still have the same basic components as they did decades ago. If a moonwatch looks like a moonwatch, and if it is made by Omega, then it is a moonwatch.
Finally, if Grand Seiko make a sub-40mm spring drive diver this year (or ever) I will sell half my collection and buy one.
Interesting comparison with guitars and take on the moonwatch. 👍
It feels like everyone is looking join the GS club at the moment. Will be interesting to see what they bring out this year.
Thanks for the newsletter!
Great reading, went down a dozen rabbit holes after reading it.
My completely valueless $0.02 : the provenance of a company and it's ethos have value. So a random guy who buys a name and hires a company in China to make watches for him rates a total zero on the heritage scale.
Maybe they make great watches, but no heritage at all should be claimed. It annoys me when companies pretend the link is direct and significant and I'm less likely to buy those brands. (Happily my primary brand is Seiko 😅)
The 6 and 9 need to much more time to answer. Will mull those further.
Sorry no coffee - but just made a tea:
I like your thoughts. 👍
There is one watch from a resurrected brand that I do still love due to it heritage.
It's the Alsta Nautoscaph from Jaws.
Now own by a Scottish guy I believe, but I think because it's heritage was all about the look, rather than an achievement, I still feel it kinda counts.
I do feel the cost of the current watch is a bit high for what it is, due to cashing in on the jaws connection.
With coffee you say?
I’m pretty sure I have a lot more
Which would blow my mind in 2023 🤔 I donno, but if they dropped a Pelagos LHD 39 I probably would blow my load!! Cream lume, date in a titanium case under 39? Get OUT of here!!!
The #notamoonwatch got me thinking about the ship of Theseus thought experiment and it's interesting to delve into the question of how many changes can the original model endure before it can't be called a Moonwatch anymore. One answer could be that as long as the current model is still manufactured by its original maker, is still looking the same and is still certified by NASA it can be called a Moonwatch. The other answer is that Omega has been homaging for decades a discontinued model and used clever marketing to fool the enthusiasts into believing that they are buying the real thing.
Bulova is doing the same to a lesser degree with their Lunar Pilot and as @Max demonstrated, continuity and heritage is a matter of opinion. My own opinion is that as long as enough people believe and accept the story spun by the manufacturer's, that story gains its own "truth".
Yes, I too struggle with how I feel about the Speedmaster. I think I'm coming round to the feeling that since it 'did' go to the moon, and as long as it 'could' still go to the moon, it's a moon watch in my eyes. This opinion may well be highly influenced by the fact I would like to own one one day. 😏
Another great newsletter!
For 2023, I’d like to see a company make a triple calendar watch/movement with a day/month aperture and moonphase (with ’moonface’) complete with sub-dialled date. In 37mm. No taller than 11mm. For under £1000. Or just the moonphase with sub-dialled date, no apertures. In steel.
To keep costs down, print the dial (nicely!), gold tone (if they must), silver or black dial only. Indices on the ’evens’. Arabic numerals on the rest (but no cutting off the numerals). Any watch blog/retailer that wants to produce a series of ‘limited’ editions can have their name on the dial (but only in the exact font as the rest of the dial) over the moonphase register, in a ‘downward’ smiley. Closed caseback.
Too specific??
Sounds wonderful!
If the L2L is less than 45mm put my name down for one too 😁
With coffee you say?
I’m pretty sure I have a lot more
I'll need a picture for each week so feel free to keep sharing! 👏
Yes, I too struggle with how I feel about the Speedmaster. I think I'm coming round to the feeling that since it 'did' go to the moon, and as long as it 'could' still go to the moon, it's a moon watch in my eyes. This opinion may well be highly influenced by the fact I would like to own one one day. 😏
Be careful what you wish for. As a kid I always wanted to be a tractor driver and my wish was granted when the company issued me a Renault Megane Diesel, making me sorry that the 8 years old me didn't wish to be an F1 driver instead.
The #notamoonwatch got me thinking about the ship of Theseus thought experiment and it's interesting to delve into the question of how many changes can the original model endure before it can't be called a Moonwatch anymore. One answer could be that as long as the current model is still manufactured by its original maker, is still looking the same and is still certified by NASA it can be called a Moonwatch. The other answer is that Omega has been homaging for decades a discontinued model and used clever marketing to fool the enthusiasts into believing that they are buying the real thing.
Bulova is doing the same to a lesser degree with their Lunar Pilot and as @Max demonstrated, continuity and heritage is a matter of opinion. My own opinion is that as long as enough people believe and accept the story spun by the manufacturer's, that story gains its own "truth".
Minor tangent here, but this reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend when he purchased his Speedy: Hesalite or Sapphire? is Sapphire, uncertified for space travel, technically not a moonwatch? Funny enough, every time we send each other wrist shots (ew, watch nerds 😂) and he sends his speedy, I go, "Wow, Moonwatch looking good." As I previously stated, even with these rules that I put in place for myself, I find myself breaking said rules 9/10 times.
Regardless of how we categorize it, the speedy is a looker and I still have it on my wishlist. I think with things like this, it's best to take a step back from the technicalities, and just enjoy watches for what they are... At least when I get my hands on my own... or at the very least land on a Moonswatch to scratch the itch. 😭
The cryptic question.... it's "Watch Dial". Where do I collect my prize? 🤣
Unless I'm mistaken, the Speedmaster failed on its moon trip. How is that a selling point? Luckily a Bulova was along for the ride.
With coffee you say?
I’m pretty sure I have a lot more
that aqua terra......There's also a similar one with small seconds
next big buy
they've drawn me in now for some years
Minor tangent here, but this reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend when he purchased his Speedy: Hesalite or Sapphire? is Sapphire, uncertified for space travel, technically not a moonwatch? Funny enough, every time we send each other wrist shots (ew, watch nerds 😂) and he sends his speedy, I go, "Wow, Moonwatch looking good." As I previously stated, even with these rules that I put in place for myself, I find myself breaking said rules 9/10 times.
Regardless of how we categorize it, the speedy is a looker and I still have it on my wishlist. I think with things like this, it's best to take a step back from the technicalities, and just enjoy watches for what they are... At least when I get my hands on my own... or at the very least land on a Moonswatch to scratch the itch. 😭
good point about the crystals. There was something similar about military issued pilot watches as well (and I think military issued field watches). Though I would be interested to learn what crystal was on The Bulova that went to the moon? in The auction pictures it looks like a top hat style, like the sapphires on the current lunar pilot. But not sure if they had sapphire watch crystals in the 1970s? Maybe a mineral crystal of some sort?
I'll need a picture for each week so feel free to keep sharing! 👏
as you wish
as you wish
I know that watch! 😍
my motto : “JKS “
(just. keep. swimming!)