Buying the Company Too (Rant/Disappointment)
Okay, so I have a bit of a rant. I wrote a post similar to this last December, but I removed it the same day I posted it as the owner of the company responded to my email listing my concerns about their "business practices". Because of that, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, so I removed the post for a little while to see if he would actually do what he said he would. To date, he has not.
I purchased the Humboldt GMT from Oak & Oscar last December (2022). I LOVE the watch! Nearly everything about it is what I look for in a watch. But I also love to have multiple strap options, so in addition to purchasing the watch, I ordered one of their new canvas straps. It looks and reads to be as rugged as the watch itself, and because they were made for these watches, I anticipated an excellent fit. That is how I justified the premium price ($115 USD).
Well, when it all arrived I quickly realized that the custom canvas strap was not a great fit at all. It was too wide for the lug width of the watch. And not just by a little bit, I really had to force the strap in between the lugs. This causes the end of the strap to kind of puff out, or round out, so it rubs on both the lugs and the watch case itself, and it catches on the ends of the case quite often. This has already caused some of the color to wear off of the strap where it contacts the case, and it reduces the mobility of the strap on the wrist which reduces comfort and making it much harder to break it in.
Shortly after receiving my order, I got an email from the company asking me to review the items I purchased. So I did. On December 18th. I gave the watch 5 out of 5, and I gave the strap 3 out of 5. On December 21st my review for the watch was posted on the O&O website, but not my strap review. So I emailed the company to see what was up and express my concern that it APPEARS that they artificially suppress less than desirable customer reviews to keep their ratings high on their website. Chase, the owner, responded.
We're crazy swamped right now and your watch review was a quick and easy approval for me. But, your strap review was, in my opinion, a little harsh. I wanted to take some time to reply to the review before publishing it and have a quality response noted on the website.
As for your strap issues, it's a natural, organic material that is formed, by hand, into the shape. There will always be some variance and tolerance in the width and thickness. Personally, I'd rather it be too thick than too thin. I also have no clue about the "shedding" as I've never heard or seen that before on any of the canvas straps we've sold.
I'm also not sure why you didn't reach out to us directly about your issues with the strap before posting a negative review. We'd have happily discussed it with you as the issues you're having are a first for us. Making sure our Owners are happy, and just generally being good people, are absolute priorities for us and I would have hoped that came across when you met us at the NYC Windup.
That response from Chase was on December 21st. My review is still not on their website. Also, here are my problems with his reply.
- My 3 star rating is fair game to be questioned in his opinion, but my 5 star was perfectly acceptable as valid and posted to his website. So, I am of the correct opinion and sound mind for the 5 star watch review, but not for the 3 star strap review. Regardless of the fact that I am indeed the same individual, and I used the same criteria to judge that I use for all things. I guess the only quality responses are his? BS.
- I could care less what HIS preference is for straps being a bit too wide vs. a bit to narrow. This is not his review, it's mine, just as it it my preference, not his. If a custom watch strap does not fit the watch it is designed for, to me, that is not an insignificant issue. And, even if he has never heard of the other issue I mentioned, that doesn't mean they are not an actual issue. When the strap arrived, some of the canvas material "shed" from the strap as I was handling it (all over my desk and keyboard). He just dismisses my feedback as he is not familiar with it, even though I said it no longer seems to be an issue and was not part of my overall rating. BS.
- I submitted my reviews in direct response to his company's request for me to do so. I recognize that 3 out of 5 is less than desirable, but it being negative is also entirely subjective. Not great, but also not a failure rating. Given the option to do a 3.5, I likely would have, but their rating system does not allow for such, and to me, it was NOT worthy of 4 stars. Also, telling me that I needed to contact him before providing a review THEY asked for, that's not on me, I was following their process.
- A quick conversation at a watch fair is not a basis for how I see a company, their actions determine that, not their words.
- Everything is his response addresses how all of my actions are questionable and incorrect, it's full of platitudes and "spoken" company values, but takes zero accountability. And apparently only good, constructive criticism given in the right way (based on his personal assessment it seems) makes their webpage.
Thanks for your email. We absolutely appreciate all reviews—good and bad! Good constructive criticism given in the right way is absolutely vital to learning and doing better. I wholeheartedly believe that.
We've been very fortunate, and put in a lot of hard work and effort into making great products, that we've not received any legit bad reviews (some reviews were made for wrong products or by folks that didn't even purchase the items they'd left reviews for). The reviews posted are legit and uncensored, typos and all! We absolutely do not curate the reviews (again, except for the ones that are obviously not accurate or otherwise inappropriate) to inflate the ratings.
I hate this because this casts a negative cloud over this company for me now, which also makes me look at my watch a little differently. Customer ratings matter to me, a lot. I read reviews to help me make a determination when making a purchase, especially for items that cost thousands of dollars. As I am sure most of us do! I now naturally assume that O&O only post reviews that are 4 or 5 stars, while keeping other reviews off of their websites, which is extremely disingenuous and misleading, which I said to Chase.
My review specifically noted why I gave the rating I did, that fact that the actual fit and compatibility of the "custom" canvas strap does not actually fit and does not appear to be compatible. I could have bought a much less expensive version from Etsy that likely would have been a better fit.
I waited over a month, and well after the holiday season to see if he would do as he said he would, post my review with his "quality" response. He has not. So, my post is now back.
Somewhat new to the collecting community, but pretty far down the rabbit hole already…
Do you have photos of the strap fitment and shedding?
Do you have photos of the strap fitment and shedding?
I do. And I told them that. Last message was him saying I can just return the strap if I’m unhappy with it.
I do. And I told them that. Last message was him saying I can just return the strap if I’m unhappy with it.
I mean its nice that you can return the strap. I was wondering why you didnt post the photos here?
$115 for a canvas strap and it’s a very poor fit? Sheesh. Not okay.
First, you were asked to review a product, not take to a watch forum and evaluate the company's business practices. As Chase is saying, "We absolutely appreciate all reviews—good and bad! Good constructive criticism given in the right way is absolutely vital to learning and doing better. I wholeheartedly believe that." But now, you're not just targeting your criticism at a product, you're levelling it at a whole company and the business practices of a man who started it.
Second,...you were able to post his responses directly, but not your reviews or emails?
How are we to believe that you gave your criticism or suggestions in the right way if you don't share pictures or your review? Did your review include the nuanced discussion of the strap production that led to your unsatisfactory experience? Your write-up leads me to believe that you're only showing part of the story...talk about a double-standard.
Yeah I would have been pissed too. They hosted a RedBar MKE event last month, they were nice guys for sure. But I will say this does put a bad taste in my mouth as well. I most likely won't be moving on any of their pieces.
$115 for a canvas strap and it’s a very poor fit? Sheesh. Not okay.
They don't have a leg to stand on here regarding quality/fit issues. You buy direct, pay a premium for a non-premium material, you rightly expect zero compromise in the final product. This is the kind of thing that always taints customer experience, a shame for the customer and should be a lesson for the company in terms of quality control.
First, you were asked to review a product, not take to a watch forum and evaluate the company's business practices. As Chase is saying, "We absolutely appreciate all reviews—good and bad! Good constructive criticism given in the right way is absolutely vital to learning and doing better. I wholeheartedly believe that." But now, you're not just targeting your criticism at a product, you're levelling it at a whole company and the business practices of a man who started it.
Second,...you were able to post his responses directly, but not your reviews or emails?
How are we to believe that you gave your criticism or suggestions in the right way if you don't share pictures or your review? Did your review include the nuanced discussion of the strap production that led to your unsatisfactory experience? Your write-up leads me to believe that you're only showing part of the story...talk about a double-standard.
If the company refuses to post the review, then posting the criticisms on a watch forum is entirely appropriate.
Criticizing a company that refuses to, or unreasonably delays posting reviews that they asked for is entirely appropriate, and the right way to get information out to potential customers. If the brand was interested in countering the narrative in the review, they should have posted the review with a reply. It's a far more effective way to deal with these things than not showing the negative reviews at all. Not posting the review makes it seem as though they have something to hide.
@BigIona I think this could be best tackled by posting a detailed strap review with your photos on WC, perhaps appended to this post. It would help flesh out your argument.
Edit: I think them not posting on their website means it's fair game for you to post here with photos. I think everyone (or at least I) would appreciate knowing if a well regarded microbrand is having quality lapses on the strap side.
First, you were asked to review a product, not take to a watch forum and evaluate the company's business practices. As Chase is saying, "We absolutely appreciate all reviews—good and bad! Good constructive criticism given in the right way is absolutely vital to learning and doing better. I wholeheartedly believe that." But now, you're not just targeting your criticism at a product, you're levelling it at a whole company and the business practices of a man who started it.
Second,...you were able to post his responses directly, but not your reviews or emails?
How are we to believe that you gave your criticism or suggestions in the right way if you don't share pictures or your review? Did your review include the nuanced discussion of the strap production that led to your unsatisfactory experience? Your write-up leads me to believe that you're only showing part of the story...talk about a double-standard.
Yes, and I reviewed the product. If you want to know what I said, as is my point in this post, THEY should post the review they asked for, for all to see. They had no problem posting my 5 star review in less than 72 hours. But it’s been 35 days since I submitted my strap review, and it still does not appear on their page. Both of my reviews included the photos you would like to see, and my positive watch review which is on their website included the 3 photos of the watch I submitted with that review.
Also, this is a watch forum to discuss all things watches. That absolutely includes watch company business practices and consumer/collector concerns. At least for me it does.
The double standard, which again is the point of this post, is theirs.
Well that sucks.
That really sucks! That price for that strap is ridiculous! I have custom straps made starting at 105.00 US. We'll you know who to stay away from. Sorry it had to ruin a moment with that watch. SERVICE is KEY for any brand to survive in this competitive market.
Best and hope you get it worked out.
They are clearly selective with their reviews. On their Humboldt GMT watch we have 59 reviews, 56 of them 5 star, 3 at 4 star. That's the kind of approval rating one expects in a North-Korean election.
Having said that, I'd generally not give a hoot on the reviews of the company's own website, because this is open to manipulation. On platforms like Amazon, ebay, AliExpress, Jomashop the negative reviews do make it to the site and are quite informative.
I think your review sounds fair and was based on your experience. A custom made strap should fit better than that.
Not great work from their end and I think it's absolutely fair play for you to post your concerns here if they are unwilling to do so on their website.
I appreciate hearing the good and bad about a company before coming to my own conclusions and making a purchase.
Same strap, different color on my Humboldt 7 year. Fit was fine.
It is a shame that your experience wasnt as great as it should be. This hobby, besides the expense of it, should always be positive.
That 7 year is really gorgeous. I’m not usually a gold person, but the bronze/gold combo on that model is really well done. Glad the blue strap fit well for you!
I do love the Humboldt. I wear it mostly on the bracelet, which is really nice. I am still working on breaking in the strap though. The light brown strap and black dial combo is a favorite of mine.
I see your point and no judgment here but, personally, I ignore reviews I read on a seller's site because they have an incentive to curate the reviews that help their sales (and some may treat it as a form of advertising so nothing really negative gets through).
Even well meaning sellers will be unconsciously biased in favor of their own products. They put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into their products so it's hard to see them criticized (constructively or not) making it almost impossible for them to curate reviews objectively.
Of course, I'm a cynic and also take reviews from magazines, online news sources, or YouTube skeptically too. Because I put so little stock in reviews, I look to see how a seller fixes any reported issue. If they offer a replacement or refund, they're golden as far as I am concerned especially when buying online sight unseen (annoying that I didn't get what was promised but if I'm ultimately not harmed, ok).
Also, I think it's perfectly fine to post your experience with sellers on forums like this one. Where else can watch fans like us vent (positively and negatively). I tend to trust the experiences on these forums more than almost anywhere else because this is where you see a customers true unfiltered experience (and you can judge for yourself whether the criticism or praise is fair or justified).
Great looking watch by the way. The potential issues buying online without being able to see the products in person is why I only have 1 such watch in my collection (I don't mind risking strap money but watch money?).
I see your point and no judgment here but, personally, I ignore reviews I read on a seller's site because they have an incentive to curate the reviews that help their sales (and some may treat it as a form of advertising so nothing really negative gets through).
Even well meaning sellers will be unconsciously biased in favor of their own products. They put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into their products so it's hard to see them criticized (constructively or not) making it almost impossible for them to curate reviews objectively.
Of course, I'm a cynic and also take reviews from magazines, online news sources, or YouTube skeptically too. Because I put so little stock in reviews, I look to see how a seller fixes any reported issue. If they offer a replacement or refund, they're golden as far as I am concerned especially when buying online sight unseen (annoying that I didn't get what was promised but if I'm ultimately not harmed, ok).
Also, I think it's perfectly fine to post your experience with sellers on forums like this one. Where else can watch fans like us vent (positively and negatively). I tend to trust the experiences on these forums more than almost anywhere else because this is where you see a customers true unfiltered experience (and you can judge for yourself whether the criticism or praise is fair or justified).
Great looking watch by the way. The potential issues buying online without being able to see the products in person is why I only have 1 such watch in my collection (I don't mind risking strap money but watch money?).
I feel ya. Luckily I got to try the watch on in the metal at a watch fair, and it’s still as great as I remember. As is the bracelet that it comes with. I would still recommend the watch to anyone looking for a caller GMT.
Maybe just not the strap…
Fellow Humboldt owner; I always found the folks there nice, but I struggle with most micros when it comes to bracelets and straps, to the point I usually order a replacement at the time of order, but I usually opt for a custom third-party. That was not different with O&O, where I immediately removed the bracelet.
Regarding site reviews, I am largely turned off by a brand that clearly only posts its best reviews. I realize they are trying to build a brand and heritage, but I appreciate the brands that keep them up, or pop into the forums/reddit and address the matters. If any company is going to take the time to have reviews on the site, they should post all of them, or they risk folks heading to forums, where they lose the narrative.
Just wanted to second the request for you to post photos of the strap and the text of your review.
I was never too inspired by Oak & Oscar in the first place (the designs just bore me), but now I am certain I will avoid them.
No way would I give any of my business to a company that responds like that to a customer.
Anytime I've heard of a small business treating its customers poorly, I take a pass - there is no watch I want that bad.
Sorry to hear you had these issues, but thanks for sharing!
If I got a strap that didn't fit correctly or a watch arrived with an issue, I'd reach out to the company and ask for a refund, exchange or fix before posting a review (this has happened to me a couple times over the years) YMMV. I get that you were prompted to write the review, which was likely an auto-generated email from their Shopify setup, but I just don't understand not voicing your concerns directly. IME small companies are usually pretty cool about it. After you attempted to post the review, he offered to let you return it, which seems appropriate to me and would have likely been the experience if you asked him about it directly.
Disclaimer, I'm friends with Chase, I even bought that exact strap (full price) to wear with my green Olmsted (fit perfectly by the way, maybe I'm lucky). Not to excuse the lack of posting reviews, but I've never given too much credence to the review features on these kinds of webshops, for this, among many other reasons. However, if I was in his position, I don't think I'd be in a hurry to post a negative review from somebody who didn't ask for a remedy before posting.
Were you obligated to do so? Not at all. At the same time though, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have asked first.
Their failure to post all reviews, good, bad or otherwise is manipulative and dishonest in my opinion. Reviews are supposedly there to educate the consumer as to the quality of product and service they provide. If they don't post all of them, they may as well not post any reviews.
The response from Oak & Oscar should have been simply, "Sorry we didn't meet your expectations and how can we make it right?" No need to explain processes or justify decisions. Make it right. Done. Arguing with a customer nearly always makes the seller look bad, which it does here.
This kind of sours me on the brand, and I have a Humboldt GMT!
It is disappointing that more companies, both big and small, have forgotten that customer service is their responsibility and not the customers.
If you are going to solicit reviews from you customers, maybe check in with first, or wait long enough between product delivery and the request for review that any issues can be resolved in a positive manner.
I had a company send an e-mail asking for a review before they had shipped the product. I responded to the e-mail that I would consider reviewing the product once received. Well, after two more e-mail request for reviews and still no product in hand (well after the promised delivery date) I posted a review that said I had no idea of the quality of the product, because I had not received the product nor a follow up on the status of the order. The owner reached out to me, made the situation correct then asked if I would follow up on my review. I was happy to do so and let other customers know how the situation had been handled.
The biggest shame in the Biglona's story is that Oak and Oscar don't realize or seem to care that the product is only one part of the overall customer experience, and that customer service or interaction after sale, when not equally positive tarnishes the owner experience.
No one needs a watch, and when the experience is not good, neither is the product.
Absolutely ridiculous. Good quality straps cost $60 - $80 in my experience. Anything costing more than that better be absolutely flawless. Combine that with their response and you are completely in the right.
Very disappointed in the brand, and sorry you have to go through this hassle.
Hi there Jon! Chase here from Oak & Oscar.
Sorry to see that you've posted this review, but you are absolutely entitled to do it—completely understand how let down / annoyed / pissed you must feel. I admittedly was very slow in posting your canvas strap review and that is my fault and only my fault. As I noted in my email to you I was short for time and wanted to have an appropriate response. I obviously took too long. In the meantime, I've also contacted our supplier in the hopes of making the width more uniform and precise—a hefty task with handmade canvas straps but one I'll take on. You'll notice that your review is posted on our site.
I stand by everything I said in my email and absolutely mean it. Everything from I'm happy to refund your strap (you can even keep it if you'd like) to the truth that we do not filter out reviews, except for anything that is flat out wrong (ie: wrong product, wrong company [yes, it's happened]) to something that may spill the beans about certain design secrets or share personal information (email addresses etc).
Again, as noted in my email and my public response to you that I've just posted, I'll be happy to refund your purchase or provide you with a new strap. If you're willing, and I hope you are, I'd love to send you a brand new strap with a new construction technique so that you can help test them out and improve them.
Totally understand if you'd rather just write us off as well, I didn't respond quickly enough and thats on me. I'll learn from this do better next time. And no, this isn't just a superficial response or me trying to placate you, I genuinely apologize for being slow to respond and giving off any impression of less than stellar custom service or moral value.
I hope you'll let me right this wrong.
Chase
Hi there Jon! Chase here from Oak & Oscar.
Sorry to see that you've posted this review, but you are absolutely entitled to do it—completely understand how let down / annoyed / pissed you must feel. I admittedly was very slow in posting your canvas strap review and that is my fault and only my fault. As I noted in my email to you I was short for time and wanted to have an appropriate response. I obviously took too long. In the meantime, I've also contacted our supplier in the hopes of making the width more uniform and precise—a hefty task with handmade canvas straps but one I'll take on. You'll notice that your review is posted on our site.
I stand by everything I said in my email and absolutely mean it. Everything from I'm happy to refund your strap (you can even keep it if you'd like) to the truth that we do not filter out reviews, except for anything that is flat out wrong (ie: wrong product, wrong company [yes, it's happened]) to something that may spill the beans about certain design secrets or share personal information (email addresses etc).
Again, as noted in my email and my public response to you that I've just posted, I'll be happy to refund your purchase or provide you with a new strap. If you're willing, and I hope you are, I'd love to send you a brand new strap with a new construction technique so that you can help test them out and improve them.
Totally understand if you'd rather just write us off as well, I didn't respond quickly enough and thats on me. I'll learn from this do better next time. And no, this isn't just a superficial response or me trying to placate you, I genuinely apologize for being slow to respond and giving off any impression of less than stellar custom service or moral value.
I hope you'll let me right this wrong.
Chase
Hi @oak_and_oscar ,
I’d be happy to receive and test out your new strap with the new construction technique. As I mentioned, I do love the watch and would love to have a great strap that pairs well with it. Hopefully this one will be a better fit.
If you’re willing to do that there’s no need to refund or replace the other one, I’m not looking to get more than I paid for. If this new strap hits the mark I’d be content.
Thanks for being willing to rectify the situation, and welcome to WatchCrunch! It’s a great community.
@oak_and_oscar, let me know how you want to proceed.
Hi there Jon. As we've discussed via email I will contact you with more information once we have it. Thanks!